Well said. The religion of extreme nationalism is the devils brew...
It is a sad state of affairs in Catalonia :-(It reminds me of the Scottish independence vote. The right choice was made. But there are those politicians that like to be a thorn in the side and cause trouble.
Not sure if the right choice was made. Definitely there are many contemporaries acting as thorns and thistles. Just listening to current protagonists of the Tories makes me wonder. After all, voters have been lifting them in their position ...
Oh... And yet in the Scottish independence vote I voted 'Yes'. I didn't feel like my Fascist big brother was bending my will. I felt like I was making a reasonable democratic choice, partly in order to ensure Scotland could continue to welcome people from all other countries, as we do, rather than closing down the borders and chasing away others like so many in England express a wish to do. Oh well. Perhaps I am confused, extreme, fascist and drunk on the devil's brew.
Ah, my fault,Andrew. The first three lines were addressed at Rajoy and the Guardia Civil.With the following I wanted to emphasise Rajoy's stupidity: that if I had voted, I would have voted against separatism, a) because I doubt scattered regionalism would improve people's daily life, and b) yes, I think nationalism is a breeding ground of fascism.It's not that as a Scot or Catalan I would not accept if a majority of my countrymen would vote for independance. And as an Englishman I would accept Scotland's independence.Again: For me the Spanish government chose fascist methods, not the voters for or against independence.
The sweeping judgements of troutbirder and Cherie troubled me too. These things are complex and each issue specific, and simply dismissing politicians as "causing trouble" when all they are doing is what they passionately (rightly or wrongly) believe in, and long have done, and have been democratically elected to do... is a tactic adopted by..., well... fascists actually (amongst others). The politicians whom Cherie, from England, accuses of "causing trouble" in Scotland, were elected by huge numbers of Scots under a proportional democratic system (a fair system of democracy that the UK as a whole does not have.). Off for some Daracha now since my Devil's Brew has all been drunk.
Would you be so kind and drink a Daracha for me, too?The peace of the night, my friend.
Oh... well, if you insist. Where's my bottle opener? Oh good, there it is. Guid Nicht.
Ah... Andrew I am not judging you for your choice in the referendum or your choice of political candidate. I am judging politicians (and others) that challenge the result of a democratic vote and try to overturn it. I consider people who challenge and try to derail a democratic decision as trouble makers. Whichever way I voted on a matter I would still think the same.There is a lot of that behaviour (trying to overturn democratic votes) about at the moment.As to me... I am part English, part Scottish and part Irish and I could probably find many more links if I delved back further into my family history...
PS: We can choose democracy or dictatorship.But...Do either of those systems actually work?
Suggesting that another democratic vote be held once the full circumstances of a situation or choice are clear is democratic, not un-democratic. The only people who fear such a vote are people who fear that the voters may not make the choice they prefer.
Emphasis on this sentence:The only people who fear such a vote are people who fear that the voters may not make the choice they prefer.
Sean, that is correct... Often people who do not get the result they preferred ask for a revote.I have observed this with both the Scottish Referendum and the Brexit vote. Two completely different results in voting (the referendum decided unity and the Brexit vote decided separation) but both apparently need a reroll of the dice to overturn the outcomes.
Hm, I do not entirely agree. The outcome of the Brexit referendum does, of course, allow the Scottish voters to rethink their recent decision and, should the situation arise, in a new referendum decide a 'Scoxit' from the UK.
There was certainly no way of putting a positive spin on what we all witnessed. I'm not by any means entirely thrilled with the internet, but the one thing it (and smartphones) is good for is providing visual evidence that can't be misinterpreted.In 1995, the Parti Quebecois submitted a ballot intiative asking the populace to vote on seceding from the Canadian confederation. No troops were sent - rather like Scotland. The vote went against leaving.The day’s events left nothing clear except that the clashes over the status of the region - Spain’s economic powerhouse, where yearnings for a separate nation have ebbed and flowed for generations - had left supporters on both sides more hardened and polarized than before.
Catalonia hopefully will not become another Basque country.I can understand the motivation of those longing to be independent – whatever they think that means –, but I consider separation not wise an aim, to put it mildly.On the other hand, the Spanish nationalist are by no means better.I remember Article 41, 3, 1° of the Irish constitution: 'No law shall be enacted providing for the grant of a dissolution of marriage.'Analogue, there should no referendum be enacted to get independent from a state? ...
I was horrified by what what happened in Spain. I do not know enough to discuss it well. What I know, by experience, is that there are always both sided extremists in any separatist movement. We had our own crisis in Quebec in October 1970-71. The Front Liberation Quebec (FLQ) formed groups ready to exercise violence to separate Quebec from Canada. 95 bombs were exploded in Montreal. They kidnapped a British diplomat and a member of Parliament, Pierre Laporte. They made demands which could not be met. So they executed the Canadian Minister. Our then Prime Minister, Pierre Trudeau, felt he had to use the War Measures Act to protect the Quebecers. It was very strange to see the Canadian Army walking in the Montreal streets in case citizens would be attacked by their own people. It quieted the separatist movement. It decided to seek independence through political means instead of violent acts. And we had peaceful referenda afterwards. Although there have been (in front of me) a few punches exchanged between family members and friends. And ill feelings among both sided Quebecers are still easily surfacing. Always best to avoid the subject when I visit home.
And the Constitution Act, 1982 is still waiting to become ratified by a government of Quebec. There is still the spirit that denies ... And humble people are sitting on a powder keg, while others have the matches.Thank you for reminding of this old conflict, Claude. Much appreciated.