Friday, November 07, 2008

Getting afflicted with doubts

Telling a young lady the facts that inspired me to write the dialogues in previous post, she spontaneously said:

- They must not become member of the EU.

- You know that one could argue the opposite view - with exactly the same reasons, don't you?

- I know. However, I don't think they would change, once they became member of the EU. And noone - at least no majority - would insist on them changing their misogynous behaviour. On the contrary, I hear politicians say 'Ah, we should accept their culture is different from ours.

- :) And ...

- And soon some noisy Turks - not the friendly and decent one's - living here will demand those laws to become valid in in this country, too, 'because we are Turks and do have the right to live our culture wherever we do live'. And as you know, the noisy one's mostly get what they want.


Hm, when even a friendly, cosmopolitan, well-educated young woman would speak out such vehemently against Turkey becoming a member of the EU, what will those think who happen to be less educated?

Yes, even this blogger starts getting afflicted with doubts. And he is asking himself: Cui bono?

In order to make it easy to follow (and continue) this discussion, I changed the date of this post from October 27th to November 7th.

Thanks everybody for her / his patience.


  1. Bonjour Sean,

    There are now millions of muslims in Western Europe and I can't help thinking that these people will terminate Europe as we know it.

    It's a question of demography. When half of the people in one country are muslims, what kind of life will be available??

    That is the question.


  2. Ah, Georg, bonsoir, and welcome back.
    ... and sorry for having been such terrific busy with not keeping in touch. Will try to improve, though. :)

    Well, the demographic development sooner or later could indeed become a crucial factor.

    By giving in to certain demands - either to show the immense tolerance in countries which are not yet ruled by Sharia law, and / or for other reasons not yet known, 'our way of life' (peace be upon it) might change sooner.
    Hm, that was my spirit that permanently negates.
    I am not that pessimistic. There's still hope. If only I think of all those imponderables ... :)

  3. I think Turkey should join.

    One still thinks of it as a European country.

  4. Crushed,
    much appreciated.

    As I am still convinced it's a fact, I do repeat a part of what I wrote July 31st, 2007:

    CIB, focusing only on one of a myriad of aspects: Turkey has been treated by the EU on the whole with lots of dishonesty and hypocrisy during the past 30 years.
    At the time Greece, Spain and Portugal - only to mention three countries - were accepted as members of EU these countries would not have been beacons of democracy, would they?
    They developed within the EU.

  5. I don't think that this has something to do with Islam, more with culture and mentality.
    As a Turkish blogger friend said: 'If we join the EU we can transform it for good'. And people think serious that THEY can make that happen! Turkey is full of (ultra) nationalistic rhetoric, and full of militarism. Is that what Europe wants?
    When I moved to Turkey in 2002, I was pro Turkey joining the EU. Now I am a fierce opponent. Its both not good for the EU as Turkey as well!

  6. Sean, you are taking an isolated story about the 80 year old filth and generalizing. His supporters may want changes to the law, but wanting changes and actually having them passed in parliament are two different issues.

    There are mad people in all countries. Romania is part of the EU and they often have children of 12 years of age getting married. This is a Christian country that has different customs and values than say Christian Netherlands. My point is that not all Christians have the same customs and neither do all Muslims.

    Austria has produced a lot of sexual deviants that kidnap and rape their own daughters. But isolated cases cannot be applied to the whole country.

    The concept of demonizing Islam has erupted since 9/11.
    The concept of a civilization clash is a historical lie that has been promulgated for centuries on and off, through the power structures that exist. After the Soviet Union collapsed the idea of creating another object of fear was needed desperately. Islam has been in existence for over 1500 years, yet it has only been feared for the last say 10 years.

    I remember when I was a little girl in the 60’s living in Australia, my little friends all thought my family to be Italian/Catholic. I would say no, we are in fact Turkish Muslims. Many of my friends at that time had not even heard of the Muslim religion. In those days the religious intolerance was between the Catholics and the Protestants. My friends would sing songs demeaning the other religion. Seems so silly and frivolous, but the hostility was genuine at the time.

    Then there was the fear of the Iron Curtin and the fear of Communism. That Communism would spread and take away the democratic rights of Capitalist Countries. The war in Vietnam was to stop the spread of Communism. Always invoking a fear and then finding a Western solution which involves war.

    Today it is ALL Muslims that are the problem. The media chooses to sensationalize isolated stories which are then generalized, creating a genuine fear amongst other societies.

    The evil man at the moment is Ahmendinijad (I hope I spelt his name correctly). Now how bad is this guy? Has he ever declared war on another country as an offensive measure? No! Has Iran every financed a military coup on another country? No! Iran seems to get on with all its neighbours. Has Ahmendinijab ever shot someone in the face with a rifle because they looked like a Quail? No! Did he torture the British soldiers that were spying in Iranian waters? No! What is this guy truly guilty of? Personally I think he has absolutely no dress sense, but other than that I do not feel threatened.

    Yet the media likes to evoke fear and hatred towards the man and his country.

    Sorry Sean for this long winded comment. I have not been at my computer for a while and I have got a bit carried away with the length of the comment.

    Should Turkey join the EU? Does it matter? After all one day we may all be part of a New World Order.

  7. I fully agree with Hans. I think it is a cultural matter, not a religious matter. And if it makes Turkey apt to be a member of the European Union? Well, who is really thinking about that in Turkey these days?

    And - by the way and for that matter - shouldn’t Italy be kicked out of the EU? That wretched state with its racist mafia government? And that government wánts Europeans to accept mafia and neo fascism as it is.

    @ Ardent. I’m afraid there is more to Mr. Ahmadinejad than just the way he dresses. And the things he says about Israel - whether you like that country or not - are more or less disturbing. And did we forget about the Iran - Iraq war? But let’s say Mr. Ahmadinejad isn’t your worst neighbour, would he be your nicest landlord? Just ask Iranian refugees. Even so, I agree that has nothing to do with religion in general or Islam in particular. It has to do with local and regional power and with oil.


  8. Vrl, I understand what you are saying, but everything is relative.

    Did the cultural and political situation of the Iraqi people improve after they were invaded by the U.S.? No. I would go as far to say that the Iraqi people would prefer to kiss Saddam’s feet if he were alive, than live in the current turmoil of events. Things were bad with Saddam but there was relative calm.

    Iran likewise has relative calm. Culturally Iranians probably live better than the people of Saudi Arabia. But the media is willing to turn a blind eye to the cultural activities within Saudi Arabia as they have good economic and political relations with the West.

    There is no easy solution.

    Sean, sorry for steering Vrl off the subject, I just wanted to clarify my point.

  9. Ardent, I recommend you to read 'Last of Iraqi's and 'Plateau of Iran'.
    But both don't want (and can not join the EU).
    Take it in the context Sean put it here: doubts about Turkey joining the EU; Bertus, around 40% of the Turks wants to join the EU when asked, but deep in their hart, 80%.)

  10. This person above, Sean, doesn't give a damn about Turkey. Yes they should join but that is another matter. Haven't seen you about for some days.

  11. Late, but ... here I am.
    First of all, thanks to all of you for sharing your thoughts and ... your patience. :)
    Don't exactly know how and where to start. To make it a bit easier for me - I hope you, Hans, will not mind - I am going to start with Ardent. ... And you, Ardent, please don't take my words as a personal attack, but as part of the discourse.
    So be it:
    Of course, I could have written about any person or problem in any country you mention.
    Alone, I happened to decide focusing on the reaction of an open-minded young woman when being confronted with a harmful tradition amongst Turks, and - well, there is no need to repeat what has been written above. :)
    Don't we mostly 'isolate', when focusing on a specific topic?
    Thus, I am always surprised when Mrs. X - to give one example - would start a campaign in order to save the penguins of Fireland, Mr. Y would complain Mrs. X did not only not mention the endangered Javanese flying frog, but completely forgot that winegrowers are being hit by the climate change, in so far as due to the temperatures they won't be able to produce and sell any ice wine in ten or twenty years, or so, and that all this were the fault of the investment-bankers. :)
    To focus on but one of your aspects: I have made very clear what I do think about Mr. Ahmadinejad; despite this, on another 'isolated' - :) - occasion once I offered to read two articles by - as I chose to call them - lateral thinkers.

    Finally, coming back to the contents of the original post:
    1. The 'phenomenon' exists! And not 'only' girls and young woman do suffer.
    Alone in Germany 106 young Turkish men are said to have asked for help this year, as they did not / do not want to marry a girl (often a cousin) chosen by their father or uncle. Quite a few have been threatened. Daddy 'needs' to re-install what he thinks, is his honour.
    2. It’s common use in Turkey that a father would apply for a girl's passport. Being asked for the girl's age, not seldom they would 'make' it some years older. No authority would ask to see the girl, and from now on the girl will be a 'woman'. After all, a passport does not lie, hm?

    To start with the end: Thank you for trying to focus on the subject: doubts.

    You are right: It's rather a matter of culture and mentality. Perhaps I should not have mentioned the word 'sharia' in my reply to the first comment. When posting, I did certainly not think of religion.
    No nitpicking: One ought not to undervalue the influence of (certain aspects of any!) religion on both, culture and mentality, though.

    'If we join the EU we can transform it for good'.
    Spot on, my friend. :)))
    Still, I am surprised that YOU would have become a 'fierce opponent' of Turkey becoming member of the EU. No doubts, Hans?

    agreed, too!
    Your 'Italian question' let me (seriously) smile, your thoughts in re Ahmadinejad let me nod.
    So many fact(or)s, everything connected with everthing.
    Unfortunately, it would not help any individual to understand this 'everything'.
    What's one ultimatively wise individual compared to 6 billions of less wise individuals? :)
    And before I forget: You are very welcome, Bertus. Thank you.

    to begin with the end: Nor did I. :)

    Apart from that 'the person above' was not the one you refered to: I am surprised that you'd be sure what other persons do think.

    And, by the way, you are contradicting your personal policy: 'You can attack me, but not my visitors'.

    Take care (of your thoughts), my friend.

    It's always a problem when commenters would not come back to to see 'reactions' to their comment. A pity, in a way.
    So let me assure that James did not mean you.

    Ardent (and all),
    first I wouldn't, then I couldn't.
    Had I known this would turn into a hiatus I'd have at least left a message.
    Instead I thought: 'Tomorrow, tomorrow.'
    Sorry again, and again many thanks for your thoughts. They were / are appreciated.

  12. Dear Sean,
    A balanced reply..)
    Why I became an opponent? Simple: it will destroy Turkey. Take for example food regulations. This means that at least 75% of the shops in Turkey must be closed. 75% of their factories (Chech had to close 5.000 factories between August 2003 and April 2004 (when they joined).
    Also: if Turkey's MP's enter the EU parliament...there will be a ongoing 'filibuster' which will make the EU a more moloch than it already is...
    No, I don't think that James had the intention to harm. I know that I did a lot of PR for Turkey. Here and in West Europe.

  13. Sean, be very careful of false friends, that is all. And Hans was right - it did not refer to you. As for my rule, well - what's a rule without an exception? As to what we know of people, my five post series answers that, I think. The peace of the night to you.

  14. I will 'attack' your reader , but don't be upset for no kids will die as a result.

    How arrogant that you minimize James everytime he posts about a real and serious threat to us all at the hands of that'much appreciated' Crushed on James' blog.

    It's a 'farce' that you call him your friend as you go over and do your bit for B.P damge control.
    Who are you to valididate anyone else's suffering,public humiliation character assassination?
    If you are incapable of grasping the situation then maybe you should refrain from commenting until you do, or show an interest enough to.
    Let me ask you did YOU read James' full post before commenting?

    Your comments there are to , with forethought and malice, undermine him.
    I had a friend like you-next time I will be more selective.
    * peace of the night*

  15. Your thoughts are eagerly sought but please keep to the issue rather than against the commenter you disagree with. It's the only rule in comments here.
    If you'd like to post something yourself on the blog, you're welcome. Email me-James
    I have problems following your Reasoning James.
    Who is a hyproc......

  16. James,
    You can be sure I choose my friends very carefully. :)
    As for the exception of your rules: Quite, but please not on my blog.
    The rest of my reply you found on yours.
    The peace of the night.

    please, don't get confused.
    There are myriads of more interesting things, though, than to explain 'this'.
    Thus, just ignore the latest comments. :)

    Let's rather laugh about TDN being Hurriyet now. :))))

  17. Hmm I thought I had posted a comment here. I must have dreant that I posted that comment.

    All I wanted to say is that I would support Turkey's accession but not without some serious reservations, not least the number of Turks who are as much bicycle as human....

  18. Ha, Jams. Don't worry. Such things happen. It's all part of Omnium. :)

    Providing I get that 'bicycle' right, I do urge all readers who for irreproducable reasons happen to not having read 'The Third Policeman' yet, to hurry into their bookshop round the corner and order the enlightening masterpiece.
    It will multiply the pleasure which is to be found in the final clause presented by Jams O'Donnell Esq..

    Jams, please let me know I got you right. :)

  19. You did indeed. Sergeant Pluck is en route to Rukey as I write

  20. It's just as well he's going to Rukey as the Turks probably would not appreciate his actions!

  21. On the contrary, Jams, on the contrary! There's no doubt Turkey's history would be newly written, larger-than-life statues erected, towns, streets, places, rivers, mountains and meadows re-named - all this to honour Turkey's greatest son and only hero and his eight arrows: Atapluck.